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Kong76

LF (9/18/03 11:17 pm)
2003 Rankings

Gonna be time soon to get cracking on this (miserable) year.

We've used 50 different players this year (is that a team record?) - 25 pitchers & 25 sticks. A full 20 of them won't make the cut.

In the previous years, has anyone ever been on the roster from wire to wire and not made the top-30? (we're talking to YOU Jay Bell!)

Has anyone ever been a starter for half a season and not made the cut? (we see you hiding back there Rey Sanchez)

Can we just declare this one a 30-way tie for last?
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The Big Train (9/18/03 11:26 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

The record is 1967 -- 54 Mets I believe.

Jay Bell has been non-contribuiting at a shockingly low level.

He has walked, so that may get him on somebody's list. I don't see him making mine. And I don't see him making the PotG list.
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Norrin Radd (9/19/03 11:06 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

shouldn't we be waiting until the season is over?

i mean LITERALLY over, as opposed to just "over, for all intents and purposes".
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LF (9/19/03 11:26 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Absolutely, that's why I said it will soon be time to get working.

I just figured that - w/Watson & M. Glavine making appearences - we've seen all the players we're going to see this year and was curious how close the half-hundred unis we've seen was to a team record.

Otherwise feel free to ignore this thread until a week from Monday.
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Norrin Radd (9/29/03 12:41 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

ok boys & girls... lets get going.
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metsmarathon (9/29/03 1:32 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

i'm so glad i have the X3's! yay.
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LF (9/30/03 3:00 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

'03 Met Position Players by ABs

1-5: Wiggy, Cedeno, Phillips, Floyd, Timo

6-10: McEwing!!, Reyes, Wilson, Alomar, Clark

11-15: Piazza, Burnitz, Gonzalez, Sanchez, Duncan

16-20: Shinjo, Bell, Vaughn, Scutaro, Garcia

21-25: Valendia, Redman, Watson, Glavine, DePastino
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LF (9/30/03 3:09 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Pitchers by IP

1-5: Trax, Seo, Glavine, Leiter, Weathers

6-10: Heilman, Wheeler!!, Benitez, Stanton, Feliciano

11-15: Griffith, Astacio, Lloyd, Franco, Cerda

16-20: Strickland, Anderson, Cone, Bacsik, Almonte

21-25: Anderson, Strange, Roach, Moreno, Middlebrook

Only the top 5 had full seasons.
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The Big Train (9/30/03 3:14 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Rankings by Win Shares

(Note: I think there's some bugs in the data.)

Player Team Pos Hit Field Pitch Sum WS
-------- ---- ---- ----- ----- ----- ----- ---
T Wigginton NYM 3B 11.28 3.66 0.00 14.94 15
C Floyd NYM OF 13.56 1.26 0.00 14.82 15
S Trachsel NYM P 0.00 0.00 13.14 13.14 13
J Phillips NYM 1B 11.08 1.50 0.00 12.58 13
J Reyes NYM SS 8.27 3.79 0.00 12.06 12
M Piazza NYM C 7.86 3.08 0.00 10.94 11
A Leiter NYM P 0.00 0.00 9.33 9.33 9
J Burnitz NYM OF 8.22 1.03 0.00 9.25 9
J Seo NYM P 0.00 0.00 8.55 8.55 9
D Weathers NYM P 0.00 0.00 7.83 7.83 8
R Cedeno NYM OF 5.92 1.79 0.00 7.71 8
A Benitez NYM P 0.00 0.00 7.68 7.68 8
V Wilson NYM C 3.59 3.73 0.00 7.32 7
T Glavine NYM P 0.00 0.00 6.68 6.68 7
R Alomar NYM 2B 5.43 1.21 0.00 6.64 7
T Perez NYM OF 3.99 1.47 0.00 5.46 5
J McEwing NYM 2B 1.65 2.95 0.00 4.60 5
R Gonzalez NYM OF 3.11 1.22 0.00 4.33 4
T Clark NYM 1B 3.86 0.39 0.00 4.25 4
D Wheeler NYM P 0.00 0.00 3.11 3.11 3
M Stanton NYM P 0.00 0.00 3.05 3.05 3
J Franco NYM P 0.00 0.00 2.97 2.97 3
P Feliciano NYM P 0.00 0.00 2.81 2.81 3
J Duncan NYM OF 0.98 1.57 0.00 2.56 3
G Lloyd NYM P 0.00 0.00 2.43 2.43 2
R Sanchez NYM SS 0.00 2.31 0.00 2.31 2
S Strickland NYM P 0.00 0.00 1.81 1.81 2
M Scutaro NYM 2B 1.34 0.42 0.00 1.76 2
J Velandia NYM SS 0.44 1.31 0.00 1.75 2
G Roberts NYM P 0.00 0.00 1.30 1.30 1
T Shinjo NYM OF 0.00 1.19 0.00 1.19 1
M Vaughn NYM 1B 0.64 0.13 0.00 0.77 1
J Bell NYM 3B 0.00 0.72 0.00 0.72 1
J Cerda NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.33 0.33 0
J Roach NYM P 0.29 0.00 0.00 0.29 0
D Garcia NYM 2B 0.00 0.28 0.00 0.28 0
J Anderson NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.26 0.26 0
P Redman NYM OF 0.00 0.12 0.00 0.12 0
M Watson NYM OF 0.00 0.05 0.00 0.05 0
J Depastino NYM C 0.00 0.02 0.00 0.02 0
M Glavine NYM 1B 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.01 0
E Almonte NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0
P Astacio NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0
M Bacsik NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0

D Cone NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0
J Griffiths NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0
A Heilman NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0
J Middlebrook NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0
O Moreno NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0
P Strange NYM P 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0
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The Big Train (10/3/03 12:32 pm)


PotG Standings

Rank Player Nom. Votes Wins ShO Points

1) Trachsel 22 154 15 3 201.22
T2) Seo 21 131 14 3 184.50
T2) Wig'ton 58 147 12.5 3 183.19
4) Phillips 52 108 9 4 167.89
**
5) Floyd 53 125 9 1 147.38
6) Leiter 19 97 9 2 133.87
7) Glav., T. 18 100 8.0 0 129.66
8) Reyes 37 102 8.5 0 122.58
9) Cede?o 48 73 6.5 0 120.92
10) Piazza 29 111 11.5 2 119.27
11) Weathers 32 22 1 0 113.81
12) Burnitz 34 91 8.33 1 106.39
**
13) Perez 34 66 6.33 0 93.44
14) Clark 26 73 7 2 92.47
15) Benitez 24 17 1.33 0 86.15
**
16) Wilson 27 55 4.5 0 73.32
17) Wheeler 18 18 1.0 0 70.79
18) Feliciano 12 35 2 0 67.57
19) Alomar 26 46 4.5 0 66.32
20) Stanton 19 10 0 0 63.91
21) Franco 15 12 1 1 61.62
22) Lloyd 13 28 2.5 1 60.65
23) Gonzalez 21 40 4.0 0 58.29
**
24) Heilman 6 19 2 0 36.95
25) McEwing 22 16 0.5 0 36.03
26) Roberts 10 5 0 0 34.79
27) Cerda 9 8 0.5 0 33.67
28) Duncan 13 18 3 0 33.35

**
29) St'kland 7 1 0 0 22.00
30) Sanchez 11 16 1 0 21.51
31) Vaughn 9 17 1 0 20.41
32) Shinjo 8 12 2 0 20.15
**
33) Garcia 4 17 2 0 17.08
34) Astacio 4 6 0 0 16.22
35) Anderson 2 12 1 1 16.00
36) Velandia 7 6 0 0 15.10
37) Cone 2 17 1 0 14.95
38) Mid'brook 2 6 1 0 13.50
**
39) Griffiths 3 2 0 0 11.54
40) Scutaro 6 6 0.5 0 11.28
**
41) Bell 8 2 0 0 9.94
**
**
42) Bascik 2 1 0 0 7.00
43) Strange 2 1 0 0 6.77
**
44) Moreno 2 0 0 0 6.00
**
45) Redman 2 1 0 0 3.67
**
T46) Roach 1 0 0 0 3.00
T46) Almonte 1 0 0 0 3.00
**
48) Watson 1 1 0 0 2.00
49) Glav., M. 0 0 0 0 0.00
-
LF (10/6/03 1:15 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

My preliminary list to kick this off;
haven't merged the hitters & pitchers yet.

Floyd
Phillips
Wiggy
Reyes
Piazza
Burnitz
Perez
Wilson
Cedeno
Clark
McEwing
Alomar
Sanchez
Gonzalez
Duncan
Scutaro
Garcia
Velandia
----------
Vaughn, Shinjo, Bell, Redman, Watson, Glavine, DePastino

Trax
Leiter
Seo
Weathers
Glavine
Benitez
Stanton
Wheeler
Feliciano
Heilman
Griffith
Lloyd
* Franco
Anderson
Roberts
Cerda
Strickland
-----
Cone, Astacio, Bacsik, Roach, Moreno, Strange,
Middlebrook, Almonte

* Fixed on edit

Edited by: LF at: 10/6/03 1:57 pm
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The Big Train (10/6/03 1:48 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Franco anywhere?
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Salamander Q (10/7/03 7:58 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

How's this gonna work? We do this collectively, over weeks and months, or does someone (mm, this year?) just get some feedback and go with his list? I vote for the former, if I get a vote.

LF (10/7/03 12:27 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Last year - being the first time we did this thing in "real time" - we pretty much submitted competing lists and/or arguments and eventually took a composite of all of them as the final answer.
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Salamander Q (10/8/03 7:53 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Well, last year our '02 guy was an egoless self-sacrificing saint who was willing to subsume his role for the group's pleasure. If mm isn't willing to match that, then we can't.
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Norrin Radd (10/27/03 11:42 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

i think Wiggy's team-lead in Win Shares is relative to the fact that he showed up everyday and played just about every game on a team where almost everybody else got between 200-400 ABs, either due to injury or trades, or part-time status, or competition at a position.

And while there is certainly something to be said about working hard, showing up, and playing well enough to keep your job (at a position where there is no real alternative), its hard to jump up and down about it, or to use the stat as an argument that he was the BEST player on the Mets last year.

Wiggy was just an OK player last year...in fact, Fonzie had a better year and everybody said he sucked.

I just did my own little down & dirty analysis, and Floyd edges Wiggy in ROI (ralph's offensive indicator). Trax edges Seo in RPI (ralph's pitching indicator). And eyballing it, I would rank the top 10 Mets of this season as:

1-Trachsel
2-Seo
3-Floyd
4-Wiggy
5-Leiter
6-Phillips
7-Cedeno
8-Glavine
9-Burnitz
10-Reyes
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Salamander Q (10/28/03 6:58 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Cedeno had a better year than Piazza? You'll have to run your reasoning past me on that one.
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Norrin Radd (10/28/03 1:12 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

i think they both had pretty shitty years, but at least roger showed up enough to actually produce offense, unlike Mike.

and Mike only showed up about 1/2 as much. Same with Burny, who had a better year than either Roger or Piazza, in 1/2 a season. And Reyes too. You can make an argument for all 3 of these guys having been more productive than Roger, albeit in more limited time.

So, feel free to make it. I'm not locked into this by any means.

Player / ROI (ROI = [rbi + runs -hr] x OPS)
?Cliff Floyd 95.66
?Ty Wigginton 94.96
?Jason Phillips 74.98
?R?ger Cede?o 69.80
?Jeromy Burnitz 60.13
?Jos? Reyes 56.91
?Mike Piazza 51.60
?Timo P?rez 46.55
?Tony Clark 43.23
?Vance Wilson 39.29
?Roberto Alomar 37.42
?Ra?l Gonz?lez 30.50
?Joe McEwing 27.65
?Mo Vaughn 14.34
?Jeff Duncan 11.79
?Rey S?nchez 10.95
?Tsuyoshi Shinjo 7.73
?Jay Bell 7.13
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LF (11/4/03 3:09 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Hey, now that the Baseball-Reference
site has the 2003 stats updated for easy comparisons,
there's no excuse not to get cracking on Ranking the
'03 team NOW!!!!
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Salamander Q (11/5/03 10:18 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I know I've made this argument before, but ROI would be much better if you wouldn't subtract HRs. (And I wonder if Piazza wouldn't finish ahead of Cedeno.) Reasoning is simple:

RBI is only PART of a run--someone has to score each and every run batted in; RUNS are only PART of a run--someone has to knock in every runner who crosses the plate. So the penalty for HRs, which is the only play that accomplishes both parts is to act punitively against HR hitters. You may think you're avoiding double-counting a run by using this subtraction method, but in fact you're committing the exact type of inaccuracy you're seeking to avoid.
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Norrin Radd (11/6/03 11:52 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

No, what i'm trying to do is measure the number of "offensive events" created by each player, multiplied by the "rate" at which he creates that offense.

How many times does a guy come to the plate and do something that counts (ie, score a run or drive one in)? If he hits a HR, thats one offensive event, not 2. so, i subtract out the HR. i multiply it out by OPS because a guy can accumulate a number of "offensive events" if given a huge number of opportunities, and another player, though having created fewer "offensive events", may have done so with many fewer opportunities but at a far greater "rate". so an adjustment is necessary.

i subtract out HRs because otherwise i'd be counting both the run and the RBIs it generates as separate "events", when i don't want to. However, i allow that there may be multiple RBIs generated by a single or a HR (or any other XBhit), thus rewarding the hitter for the big hit at the right time (not PENALIZING the HR hitter at all).

you say: "RUNS are only PART of a run--someone has to knock in every runner who crosses the plate." but that is not true. EG: Player X works out a walk, then steals 2nd. He moves to 3rd on a fly. He scores on an infield grounder... a Fielder's Choice. Player X scores based on his eye, his baserunning skill, his hustle, and there is no RBI scored. Are you suggesting that a solo HR hit by Player Z is an offensive event worth twice as much as the accomplishment of Player X? I don't.

If i was trying to create a stat to tie into a team and a players' actual run creation (comparable between teams and leagues, for example), then i'd agree with you. but i'm not. This is not a variation of the "Runs Created" formula. Its ROI. and it measures what i want it to. your mileage may vary.

Edited by: Norrin Radd at: 11/6/03 12:15 pm
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Salamander Q (11/6/03 1:17 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Well, that certainly makes sense.

On Mars.
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Norrin Radd (11/6/03 3:31 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

i knew it made sense somewhere.
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LF (12/3/03 5:10 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

So are we gonna tackle this fuckin thing or not?
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The Big Train (12/3/03 5:13 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

We are. We totally are.

Strong language from Mr. Wuss-Out-of-the-Semifinals.
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Wide BeeGee (12/24/03 1:39 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

This forum has too many forums. If there's a topic in progress it oughta be placed somewhere it'll be seen. I only come here when I'm looking for rankings, not for doing them, if ya know what I mean.

Top-of-my-head-10 (i.e.: Total guess):

Trax
Cliff
Wiggs
Seo
Nitz
Reyes
Leiter
Piazza
Weathers
Cedeno

EDIT -- Oooops, forgot Phillips. Ignore this list and I'll work on a real one soon.

Edited by: Wide BeeGee at: 12/24/03 12:23 pm
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The Big Train (12/26/03 10:58 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Son, do you use the "Mark Forum Read" feature? It makes navigating multiple fora a piece of cake.
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OhSheaCanKC (12/30/03 3:23 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Not an easy task, here's a shot at the top ten for a hoot.

30 Trachsel, S SP Team lead in IP [205], ERA [3.78], & W [16]
29 Floyd, C LF Despite only 108 G, solid production
28 Wigginton, T 3B Team lead in G [156], H [146], RBI [71]
27 Leiter, A SP Team lead in SO [139], second in W [15]
26 Reyes, J SS Despite only 69 G high WS, emotional spark
25 Phillips, J 1B Solid rookie year, tough for me to rank
24 Seo, J SP At times, most reliable on staff
23 Burnitz, J RF Tied team lead in HR [18] despite only 65 G
22 Perez, T OF Covered entire outfield, better than Cede?o
21 Glavine, T SP Offense so bad, I need another pitcher

Stats from baseball-reference.com
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OhSheaCanKC (12/30/03 3:53 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I dissed Weathers, maybe even Benitez.

I fix up, yah.
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LF (12/30/03 3:43 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

OK, how's this one:

30 - Trax
29 - Floyd
28 - Phillips
27 - Wiggy
26 - Leiter
25 - Reyes
24 - Seo
23 - Piazza
22 - Burnitz
21 - Weathers
20 - Glavine
19 - Perez
18 - Benitez
17 - Wilson
16 - Stanton
15 - Cedeno
14 - Clark
13 - Wheeler
12 - Alomar
11 - Feliciano
10 - McEwing
9 - Heilman
8 - Griffith
7 - Sanchez
6 - Lloyd
5 - Gonzalez
4 - Duncan
3 - Franco
2 - Roberts
1 - Scutaro

Outside looking in:
Vaughn, Shinjo, Bell, Redman, Watson, M. Glavine, DePastino, Cone, Astacio, Bacsik, Roach, Moreno, Strange, Anderson, Middlebrook, Almonte, Velandia, Cerda, Strickland, Garcia

Edited by: LF at: 12/30/03 3:43 pm

Kong76 · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:12 pm Post subject:

OhSheaCanKC (12/30/03 4:31 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Day late and a dollar short. I'll try and round this out by
tomorrow without looking at what LF just posted or the
others too much, then we can argue a little.

Edited by: OhSheaCanKC at: 12/30/03 4:33 pm
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The Big Train (1/1/04 11:21 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

There seems to be some overexcitement with Reyes. There's only so much you can do being one guy on the team for 68 games.

Below are my rankings, having only measured hitting and pitching. Fielding is a long and lugubrious task, but, when I repost with fielding factored in, it will bring catchers and shortstops up against firstbasemen, and everyday players up against pitchers. So, despite Trax's lead, Wiggs may win the year yet.

Maybe not.

But please see. After I've got Trax, Wiggs, Seo, Leiter, and Floyd, each player among the next four is no more than 2% behind his leader. But at number 22, Weathers has 48.64% more points than the next guy Burnitz. And Jeromy is quickly joined then by a lot of partial-season friends ? Reyes, Piazza, Benitez and Alomar.

A partial season is a partial season is a partial season, and it takes a hell of an August to make up for a nothing in April and May. I'm sure those points will be cut into when we measure defense, at least by Piazza and Reyes, but 21 seems to be the ceiling that Mike or Jose can reach, behind all-year regulars (Trax, Wigs, Seo, Glavine, Cede?o, Weathers), and most-of-the-year regulars (Leiter, Floyd, Phillips).

Rank Rating Player

30 634.287 Trachsel
29 604.019 Wigginton
28 561.745 Seo
27 528.570 Leiter
26 502.743 Floyd
25 494.572 Glavine, T.
24 484.995 Cedeno
23 479.874 Phillips
22 474.506 Weathers
21 319.229 Burnitz
20 314.426 Perez
19 305.125 Reyes
18 304.601 Piazza
17 292.592 Benitez
16 287.740 Clark
15 273.398 Alomar
14 252.070 Wilson
13 248.971 McEwing
12 218.850 Wheeler
11 214.111 Franco
10 211.602 Gonzalez
9 207.404 Feliciano
8 169.478 Lloyd

7 161.303 Stanton
6 142.703 Strickland
5 124.986 Heilman
4 114.871 Duncan
3 108.742 Sanchez
2 92.920 Bell
1 86.769 Cerda
0 83.535 Scutaro
-1 82.556 Vaughn
-2 78.453 Shinjo
-3 74.548 Griffiths
-4 71.909 Roberts
-5 64.576 Astacio
-6 52.739 Velandia
-7 50.014 Garcia
-8 36.981 Cone
-9 29.624 Anderson
-10 23.319 Bacsik
-11 17.625 Redman
-12 15.458 Almonte
-13 15.360 Roach
-14 14.663 Moreno
-15 14.479 Strange
-16 14.277 Watson
-17 11.532 Middlebrook
-18 2.783 Glavine, M.
-19 0.000 Depastino

Edited by: The Big Train at: 2/3/04 11:00 pm
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OhSheaCanKC (1/2/04 10:03 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Your 2003 Mets! You can have them ....

Edited by: OhSheaCanKC at: 1/2/04 10:06 am
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The Big Train (1/3/04 1:24 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Rank Batting Pitching Fielding Rating Player

30 604.0185463 0 199.6925205 803.711 Wigginton
29 35.40923557 598.8777771 26.32465272 660.612 Trachsel
28 484.9953918 0 138.6065798 623.602 Cedeno
27 502.7433043 0 93.00882006 595.752 Floyd
26 479.8735958 0 112.5690863 592.443 Phillips
25 19.97096692 541.7737162 24.70389033 586.449 Seo
24 2.835346061 525.7345723 22.89377065 551.464 Leiter
23 29.35289294 465.2192493 20.66160487 515.234 Glavine, T.
22 0 474.5058686 14.9791843 489.485 Weathers
21 304.6011677 0 136.7636672 441.365 Piazza
20 314.4258298 0 118.8443702 433.270 Perez
19 305.1250946 0 120.1050587 425.230 Reyes
18 319.2291694 0 81.40760638 400.637 Burnitz
17 252.0700597 0 140.487441 392.558 Wilson
16 248.9706251 0 129.7001983 378.671 McEwing
15 273.3978223 0 98.42057557 371.818 Alomar
14 287.7396725 0 45.33720073 333.077 Clark
13 0 292.5923284 8.005004941 300.597 Benitez
12 211.6016388 0 70.86018512 282.462 Gonzalez
11 0 218.8496668 6.908638459 225.758 Wheeler
10 0 214.1112147 6.75905517 220.870 Franco
9 1.391419826 206.012664 7.685836851 215.090 Feliciano
8 108.7421861 0 81.47039044 190.213 Sanchez
7 114.8712163 0 67.28057686 182.152 Duncan
6 0 169.477759 5.350067838 174.828 Lloyd
5 -1.391419826 162.6945723 4.945716575 166.249 Stanton
4 0 142.7032464 4.504850981 147.208 Strickland
3 92.91972378 0 39.69194257 132.612 Bell
2 4.237505834 120.7489008 5.505928976 130.492 Heilman
1 78.45254771 0 49.91490048 128.367 Shinjo
0 83.53466227 0 37.63353978 121.168 Scutaro
-1 82.55647554 0 14.32982595 96.886 Vaughn
-2 0 86.76916431 2.967386367 89.737 Cerda
-3 52.73905312 0 35.86668327 88.606 Velandia
-4 1.391419826 73.15688769 3.335820244 77.884 Griffiths
-5 0 71.90942058 2.45920352 74.369 Roberts
-6 50.01416886 0 22.67316385 72.687 Garcia
-7 2.782839652 61.7928838 2.817642456 67.393 Astacio
-8 2.782839652 34.19811526 1.559371493 38.540 Cone
-9 0 29.62355478 1.105183558 30.729 Anderson
-10 17.62465113 0 10.67791731 28.303 Redman
-11 0 23.31873786 1.063291787 24.382 Bacsik
-12 14.27717735 0 3.556453601 17.834 Watson
-13 -1.391419826 16.84972878 0.628622842 16.087 Almonte
-14 5.565679304 9.7942878 0.446601606 15.807 Roach
-15 0 14.66297041 0.547040148 15.210 Moreno
-16 0 14.4785124 0.540158464 15.019 Strange
-17 0 11.53226659 0.430241121 11.963 Middlebrook
-18 2.782839652 0 0 2.783 Glavine, M.
-19 0 0 1.364872091 1.365 Depastino

On edit: Naah! CedeÃ±o can't be that high.

Edited by: The Big Train at: 1/3/04 1:25 am
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OhSheaCanKC (1/3/04 9:34 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

The ten billionth decimal place? Maybe we should help them
look for the Mars probe instead of wasting our time on the
Mets.

So where do we start? I thought a few more would pop up
a thirty or two.
-
LF (1/3/04 10:01 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I'll understand the science behind the Mars probe before I understand the logic behind Train's ranking system.
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The Big Train (1/3/04 2:34 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

What? Wigginton on top and DePastino on the bottom. McEwing in the middle. Sounds right to me.

(Though Stanton seems too low and Cede?o too high.)

Without the clunky decimals.

Rank Bat Pitch Field Rating Player

30 604 0 200 804 Wigginton
29 35 599 26 661 Trachsel
28 485 0 139 624 Cede?o
27 503 0 93 596 Floyd
26 480 0 113 592 Phillips
25 20 542 25 586 Seo
24 3 526 23 551 Leiter
23 29 465 21 515 Glavine, T.
22 0 475 15 489 Weathers
21 305 0 137 441 Piazza
20 314 0 119 433 Perez
19 305 0 120 425 Reyes
18 319 0 81 401 Burnitz

17 252 0 140 393 Wilson
16 249 0 130 379 McEwing
15 273 0 98 372 Alomar
14 288 0 45 333 Clark
13 0 293 8 301 Benitez
12 212 0 71 282 Gonzalez
11 0 219 7 226 Wheeler
10 0 214 7 221 Franco
9 1 206 8 215 Feliciano
8 109 0 81 190 Sanchez
7 115 0 67 182 Duncan
6 0 169 5 175 Lloyd
5 (1) 163 5 166 Stanton
4 0 143 5 147 Strickland
3 93 0 40 133 Bell
2 4 121 6 130 Heilman
1 78 0 50 128 Shinjo
0 84 0 38 121 Scutaro
(1) 83 0 14 97 Vaughn
(2) 0 87 3 90 Cerda
(3) 53 0 36 89 Velandia
(4) 1 73 3 78 Griffiths
(5) 0 72 2 74 Roberts
(6) 50 0 23 73 Garcia
(7) 3 62 3 67 Astacio
(8) 3 34 2 39 Cone
(9) 0 30 1 31 Anderson
(10) 18 0 11 28 Redman
(11) 0 23 1 24 Bacsik
(12) 14 0 4 18 Watson
(13) (1) 17 1 16 Almonte
(14) 6 10 0 16 Roach
(15) 0 15 1 15 Moreno
(16) 0 14 1 15 Strange
(17) 0 12 0 12 Middlebrook
(18) 3 0 0 3 Glavine, M.
(19) 0 0 1 1 Depastino
-
Wide BeeGee (1/5/04 11:52 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Splain Cedeno over Floyd, then change it.
-
The Big Train (1/6/04 12:12 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I can't really 'splain it. It looks as counter-intuitive to me as it does to you. I crunched my numbers and this is what came out.

I'll likely change it. But I want to look at it some more first.

The reason, as far as there is reason, is that is CedeÃ±o played 40 more games (and 102 more plate appearances) to advance his marker.

As you see from my rankings, even with his time docked, Floyd was still the more accomplished batter. But then there's the 40 more games of defense also. Just showing up, and playing the harder positions of right and center, gains CedeÃ±o points. Even though he played them both poorly. (Zone rating suggests that Roger did alright in right.) Buy that or not, Floyd wasn't much on defense either.

That's the "reason." But I still have some examinin' to do.

Jason Phillips, by the way, was sunk by the DPs.
-
Salamander Q (1/6/04 11:48 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Actually, if Cedeno was the third best Met, that 'splains a lot.

I mean, an inferior part-timer has a bad year even for him, is bad every which way--offense, defense, baserunning, you name it--and he winds up your third-best Player? And you're wondering why you finished last?
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The Big Train (1/6/04 12:01 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Which is why I'm not so quick to change it.

"How can he have outproduced Piazza, Burnitz, Floyd, Phillips, Leiter, Reyes, Alomar, and Benitez?" you may ask. "Even in their shortened seasons, they must have provided more help than him."

If they did, then why did the Mets win so rarely? CedeÃ±o was as productive as anybody the second half of the season, though he still wasn't very productive at all.

I'm not sure I want to stick with this, though. I have a few more numbers I'd like to experiment with. And I have to check my work again.
-
metsmarathon (1/13/04 5:43 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

edgy, where was it again where you come up with these points systems?

cos the raw offensive numbers i have so far, and which i intend to use if i ever get around to making a stab at the 2003 rankings i so deserve, indicate something a bit different in scope to what you have in regards the upper echelon of our offensive contributors...

namely, according to ESPN.com's Stats inc. supplied runs created metric, our leaderboard is as follows:

T. Wigginton, NYM 72.1 RC
C. Floyd, NYM 70.6 RC
J. Burnitz, LA/NYM 67.4 RC
J. Phillips, NYM 61.1 RC
R. Cedeno, NYM 57.8 RC

good ol' roger'd better be saving a heck of a lot more runs in rght field than i think the numbers tell me, or he's not the second-best met by any stretch.

see, he's got a slight edge in ZR and a good edge in F%, but has only 2 assists to cliff's 8, and 0 DP's to cliff's 4. that has to even things out a tad.
phillips may even be considered his superior, as his ZR would be good enough to squeeze into the upper half of qualifying 1b's, while his f% of 0.990 is good for almost last. so he's maybe at the top of the bottom third of all first basemen.

and roger? his 0.811 ZR in CF was worsered (the opposite of bettered) only by burnitz' 0.800 by fellow mets. granted, he had a mere 34 chances, so the sample size is not working for him, but he easily would have dug a new basement among qualified starting centerfielders, well below preston wilson's 0.834. in right field, he was about average, in both f% and ZR.

i have no idea how that is posible.

but only one rightfielder with as many chances as he had as few assists. sammy sosa. bernie williams had 3 in centerfield, he of the weak arm. so its not all mediocre roses.

i have a hard time finding enough good in cedeno's defensive performance to make up even 3.3 runs over phillips.

so there you have it - rough cut analysis shows my top offensive players to be:

ty
cliff
bono
roger
-
The Big Train (1/13/04 5:30 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

but has only 2 assists to cliff's 8, and 0 DP's to cliff's 4. that has to even things out a tad.

You're right, and I've been looking for a fair way to work those in. My numbers are at home, but didn't Roger have a few assists in center, also?

phillips may even be considered his superior, as his ZR would be good enough to squeeze into the upper half of qualifying 1b's, while his f% of 0.990 is good for almost last. so he's maybe at the top of the bottom third of all first basemen.

The poorer guy at the more difficult position contributes (in general) as much, if not more, than the better guy at the easier position. If you don't believe me, put Phillips in Center and see what happens.
And Roger? his 0.811 ZR in CF was worsered (the opposite of bettered) only by burnitz' 0.800 among fellow Mets. Granted, he had a mere 34 chances, so the sample size is not working for him, but he easily would have dug a new basement among qualified starting centerfielders, well below preston wilson's 0.834. In right field, he was about average, in both f% and ZR,

i have no idea how that is posible.

It's possible because (1) fielding can be a subtle skill to appreciate, particularly in right field. We recognize highlight reel plays and bonehead plays a lot better than good and bad positioning or good and bad jumps. (2) We dislike his fielding so much from his forays in left that it would take us years to visually recognize him being better at a similar position, even though he clearly is. And (3) we don't appreciate that the league isn't exactly filled with guys who earned their job in right even in part because of their defense.

ty
cliff
bono
roger

Do you have bono's DPs factored in? Do ya?

Like I said, I have some more factors to add that may tweak things.

Edited by: The Big Train at: 3/9/04 2:29 pm
-
OhSheaCanKC (2/2/04 6:13 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

We should prolly tackle this before pitchers and catchers. Any-
one want to moderate the haggling process and keep track of the
changes?

I think we have about fifteen days.
-
OhSheaCanKC (2/3/04 12:45 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I guess everyone subscribes to rule #1 of the military?

Twelve days!
-
LF (2/3/04 2:46 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

So far we have 3 lists (KC, LF, BT), plus a ranking each from 'Win Shares' and 'PotG'

Do we set a date and say that the composite from those will be final unless there are more contributions?
-
OhSheaCanKC (2/3/04 9:16 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Cede?o is a real sticking point. Most other players (of real
importance) seem to be with at least a couple of slots of
each other.

Maybe that Train guy has something up his sleeve since he
hasn't responded yet.
-
The Big Train (2/3/04 11:05 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

"A partial season is a partial season is a partial season..."

On edit: Why is it so offensive to see Cede?o third, but not so to see the poor bat/worse glove Wigginton first? I dare say that it's because Wigginton gets slack because of his relative experience and relative contract size â€” two things that should not be part of the equation.

Edited by: The Big Train at: 3/9/04 12:20 pm
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OhSheaCanKC (2/4/04 1:02 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

We're not talking about Wiggy, we're talking about Cede?o.

Having Cede?os 8 WS's ahead of a bunch of double digit WS
players doesn't really add up ... even if Roger won a Gold Glove.
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The Big Train (2/4/04 12:12 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

We're talking about methodology, and the methodology that awards one for his piling up appearances with limited productivity while more productive guys aren't playing also awards the other, in my book.

Do you mean eight slots ahead of double-digit win-share players?

(Let me look at ths at home.)

Edited by: The Big Train at: 2/4/04 12:14 pm
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OhSheaCanKC (2/4/04 12:28 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

You're kinda making a case for Floyd.

Floyd had seven or so more WS's than Roger in forty some odd
less games. I don't think there's any question who should be
ahead of who.

I'm willing to move Cede?o up on my list, but you'd have to nudge
him down a little. Of course, if you're unwilling, I'll have to whip
out my "good lord, Edge, the guy sucks" attack ... but we'll cross
that bridge should we come to it.

Edited by: OhSheaCanKC at: 2/4/04 12:29 pm
-
The Big Train (2/4/04 1:32 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Well, such a compromise would be accomplishing exactly what averageing our ratings will do.

I'll check my numbers at home, but the reason I crunched them in the first place is because I don't think win shares is necessarily the last word on anything.

Neither do you to look at your rankings.
-
OhSheaCanKC (2/4/04 1:42 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

>>>Neither do you to look at your rankings.<<<

Obviously.

Ranking a player with 8 WS's ahead of a player with 15 (who
also played in forty or so less games) just grinds my grits.
-
The Big Train (2/4/04 1:53 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Sorry about that.
-
OhSheaCanKC (2/4/04 2:22 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

good lord, Edge, the guy sucks
-
LF (2/4/04 2:37 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Now if it were me, having just watched the season, who crunched a bunch of numbers and came up with the answer that Cedeno contributed more to the team than Phillips and Floyd ...

I'd find a different way to crunch.
-
Norrin Radd (2/4/04 4:22 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

this is what i'm thinking too.

Maybe you should try ROI?
-
The Big Train (2/4/04 3:43 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I've got something you can crunch right here.

(Forgive me, my inner New Yorker has been breaking out of late.)

Edited by: The Big Train at: 2/4/04 3:43 pm
-
The Big Train (2/4/04 11:20 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I've taken a look at assists.

Please move Shinjo up from one to three on my chart.
-
LF (3/7/04 11:32 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Maybe moving this to the main forum would generate some discussion?

Or, if it turns out that no one really cares, we can go with what we've got here.
-
Salamander Q (3/8/04 8:22 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Done.

Chime in. Just not all at once. Let's reach some consensus here.

Edited by: Salamander Q at: 3/10/04 8:29 am
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The Big Train (3/9/04 12:34 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Two players had enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title.

Of those two, Cedee?o waxed Wigginton in batting average, .267 to .255. He had the better on-base percentage, .320-.318. Wigginton gets the nod for slugging, .396-.378 and pulls out the OPS lead .714-.698.

Despite the red light, Roger led the team in stolen bases with 14, though his nine failed attempts mean he was less valuable on the basepaths than Wigs, who stole 12 of 14. Still, his non-stealing baserunning was an asset all year long (when he got on base, that is). He scored only three fewer runs, despite markedly fewer plate appearances.

In the field, it's hard not to look at them as pretty much equals. Wigginton played the harder posiiton, but played it more poorly. As bad as Cede?o was in center, he was more or less fine in right.

Yeah, Roger was bad. That's not the issue. The issue was who was better. It's hard to look at Floyd's very good performance in fewer games as a positive thing. His absence, among other things, brought Matt Watson onto the field, just as Cede?o's presence kept Watson off.

Edited by: The Big Train at: 3/10/04 12:30 am
-
metsmarathon (3/9/04 3:04 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

so your argument is that a floyd/watson "platoon" is less valuable than a full cedeno, therefore floyd must be less valuable than cedeno?
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The Big Train (3/9/04 2:09 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

It can be read that way, I guess. But at least in a platoon, a player can be stategically used to maximize his output. Being unavailable for 1/3 of the season helps not at all.

But it's just an illustration. If Watson was a better player (I might have used Raul Gonzalez in my illustration), it wouldn't change the relationship of Cede?o to Floyd.

It comes down to this, even with only two thirds of a season to pile his contributions into, Clff Floyd was the better hitter. My technique scores it 503-485. But that gap was closed on defense, where Roger CedeÃ±o was better, longer, and manning tougher positions.

Edited by: The Big Train at: 3/9/04 2:32 pm
-
Duan (3/9/04 4:01 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I forgot about this, but boy am I glad I saw it.

Seriously folks Ty Wigginton has NO business being so high.
Here's where I differ. I would suggest that basically ANY OLD MINOR LEAGUE AAAA player could approach doing what Ty Wigginton did. Therefore, Wigginton's ONLY value is in his health. That's worth something all right, just not ANYWHERE near that much.

Why do I say that.

If you look at the numbers that baseballprospectus crank out you'll see that Ty Wigginton is a BELOW average major league hitter, his presence in the lineup means the mets score .024 LESS runs per game then if they had "an average major league hitter". When you add that to the fact that he plays a position towards the right of the defensive spectrum badly (7 runs below 'replacement level 3rd base' according to the BP 2004 numbers) it's safe to say that all things being equal it'd be hard to imagine Marco Scutaro (lost on waivers) not doing as good a job.

Therefore, I can't, overall suggest that he was anything like "The 2nd best player for the mets in 2003"

Here are the Met hitters in order of "VALUE OVER REPLACEMENT PLAYER"
(this figure is runs that these players generated over a replacement player in their prime defensive position)

Floyd_Cliff NYN N lf 31.2
Phillips_JasonL NYN N 1b 25.6
Piazza_Mike NYN N c 23.4
Burnitz_Jeromy NYN N rf 20.1
Reyes_Jose NYN N ss 18.5
Wigginton_Ty NYN N 3b 18.2
Alomar_Roberto NYN N 2b 7.7
Clark_Tony NYN N 1b 7.2
Scutaro_Marco NYN N 2b 1.5
Wilson_Vance NYN N c 1.2
Cedeno_Roger NYN N rf 0.5
Garcia_Danny NYN N 2b -0.9
Velandia_Jorge NYN N ss -1.6
Vaughn_Mo NYN N 1b -2.4
Perez_Timoniel NYN N lf -3.2
Gonzalez_Raul NYN N lf -3.5
McEwing_Joe NYN N 2b -5.1
Bell_Jay NYN N ph -6.8
Shinjo_Tsuyoshi NYN N cf -9.6
Sanchez_Rey NYN N ss -12.1

Don't get me started on roger.
-
rpackrat (3/9/04 4:21 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Unless I'm reading your chart incorrectly, Ty was 18.2 runs (or around 2 wins) better than a replacement player. This does not seem to jibe with your comments.
-
The Big Train (3/9/04 3:24 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Yabbut, yabbut... I originally posted my rankings back in the day as calculated by something like "value over replacement player." I measured everybody's performance from the mean. But I'd have a guy like Rey Ordo?ez 1998 at the bottom of the pack behind Rich Becker and Todd Pratt, for being below average and redundantly bringing that below-averageness for 150 games.

But, as Norrin pointed out, the natural extension of that position is that he (Norrin) did more for the Mets by staying home and watching and not attempting to play at all. That's ridiculous, and it's similarly rididculous in the case of Rey Sanchez. He did little for the Mets, but he did something and that something was measurable. It's a miniscule and disappointing positive something, but not a negative based on the notion that Jorge Velandia could have done better given the chance. Velandia didn't. And to discredit Sanchez, we'd be implicitly crediting Velandia (or Norrin). We can't do that.

Since then, I realized, to fairly estimate these guys' relative accomplishments, you have to measure these guys from zero, not from the mean. Maybe a lot of people could have done what Wigginton did for the Mets in 2004, but Wigginton did do it, and he must get credit for that.

If you want to measure their monetary value, by all means, measure them from the mean (or from the level of a replacement player), but that's not what we're going for here. We're going for net contribution.

Edited by: The Big Train at: 3/9/04 3:25 pm
-
OhSheaCanKC (3/9/04 3:29 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

A team high 15 Win Shares puts him high on any 2003 Mets list.

Unless someone want to take on the Win Shares concept, Wiggy
belongs way way up there in contributions.

Edited by: OhSheaCanKC at: 3/10/04 8:03 am
-
Duan (3/9/04 4:36 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

OK, but if his doing it was by a mere accident of health and
playing time not by any noticeable level of accomplishment, why is it of value?
-
Duan (3/9/04 4:39 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

also with regards the 18.2 runs; that only takes into account his hitting - if you take off the 7 runs he costs you defensively (thought that's a more difficult notion to be definitive about) he's only on 11 runs. Just over a game.
-
Salamander Q (3/9/04 4:45 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Which WS, of course, does.

Kong76 · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject:

The Big Train (3/9/04 4:46 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

It's not a measure of value, it's a measure of accomplishment. He helped the team win games, while others were absolutely unavailable. It's of little import whether two or three replacement players could have done ninety percent of what he did. He did it.

Jon Lieber probably has as much or more value going forth. That doesn't make him the better player in 2003.

Accident schmaccident.
-
Salamander Q (3/9/04 4:54 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

To riff on what the Edgester's saying: if we had Mike Schmidt in his prime as our 3bman, but he got hurt, missed the season, so we had to play Ty instead, then Ty gets appraised on that basis of what he did, not compared to what Schmidt could have contributed if he'd been available.
-
Duan (3/9/04 5:17 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

yeah, but if we'd just played Scutaro there the results could have been exactly the same.

Ah, I'm kind of flogging a dead horse here really.
I know where you're coming from and your probably right. It says enough about Steve Phillips appalling roster construction that Ty Wigginton COULD be up there.
-
The Big Train (3/9/04 5:28 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

You're damn right about Scoots. But then you might be here arguing that he is grossly over-rated because Wigginton could have done the same.

As it is, the team won a lousy 66 games. We're here trying to figure out who won the games for them.
-
Duan (3/9/04 6:54 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

yeah; I suppose I just object to the glorification of mediocrity.

Still, I'd put Phillips and Floyd above of Ty whatever way you cut it.
-
metsmarathon (3/9/04 9:41 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

your 2003 mets - glorifying mediocrity
-
The Big Train (3/10/04 1:35 am)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Still, I'd put Phillips and Floyd above of Ty whatever way you cut it.

There's certainly a case to be made for them. But right now, the primary case for them, to me, is based on aesthetics, and not logic.
-
The Big Train (7/30/04 4:58 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Rank Player WS LF KC BT PotG Avg St. Dev.

30 Trachsel 27.5 30 30 29 30 29.3 0.98
29 Wigginton 29.5 27 28 30 28.5 28.6 1.07
28 Floyd 29.5 29 29 27 26 28.1 1.36
27 Phillips 27.5 28 25 26 27 26.7 1.08
26 Leiter 23 26 27 24 25 25 1.41
25 Seo 23 24 24 25 28.5 24.9 1.91
24 Reyes 26 25 26 19 23 23.8 2.64
23 Piazza 25 23 19 21 21 21.8 2.04
22 Burnitz 23 22 23 18 19 21 2.10
21 Weathers 20 21 21 22 20 20.8 0.75
20 Glavine 17 20 17 23 24 20.2 2.93
19 Cedeno 20 15 14 28 22 19.8 5.08
18 Perez 14.5 19 22 20 18 18.7 2.48
17 Benitez 20 18 20 13 16 17.4 2.65
16 Wilson 17 17 18 17 15 16.8 0.98
15 Alomar 17 12 15 15 12 14.2 1.94
14 Clark 12.5 14 10 14 17 13.5 2.28
13 McEwing 14.5 10 16 16 6 12.5 3.92
12 Wheeler 9 13 13 11 14 12 1.79
11 Stanton 9 16 12 5 11 10.6 3.61
10 Gonzalez 12.5 5 9 12 8 9.3 2.75
9 Feliciano 9 11 4 9 13 9.2 2.99
8 Franco 9 3 11 10 10 8.6 2.87
7 Lloyd 4 6 7 6 9 6.4 1.62
6 Duncan 9 4 8 7 3 6.2 2.32
5 Sanchez 4 7 6 8 1 5.2 2.48
4 Heilman 9 2 1 7 3.8 3.54
3 Roberts 0.25 2 5 5 2.45 2.05
2 Strickl'd 4 4 2 2 1.67
1 Griffith 8 1.6 4.23
-
OhSheaCanKC (8/5/04 3:39 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

Nice, I just noticed this.
-
The Big Train (8/5/04 3:43 pm)
Re: 2003 Rankings

I kind of stuck my own head in a noose.

Edgy DC · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject:

Thsi comes from the grand table. I think it matches the list above.

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" border="1" bordercolor="black"><tr bgcolor="black"><td colspan="2" align="center">2003 Rankings</td></tr><tr bgcolor="gray"><td>POINTS</td><td align="center">PLAYER</td></TR><TR><TD align=center>30</td><td align="center">Steve Trachsel</td></tr><tr><td align="center">29</td><td align="center">Ty Wigginton</td></tr><tr><td align="center">28</td><td align="center">Cliff Floyd</td></tr><tr><td align="center">27</td><td align="center">Jason Phillips</td></tr><tr><td align="center">26</td><td align="center">Al Leiter</td></tr><tr><td align="center">25</td><td align="center">Jae Weong Seo</td></tr><tr><td align="center">24</td><td align="center">Jose Reyes</td></tr><tr><td align="center">23</td><td align="center">Mike Piazza</td></tr><tr><td align="center">22</td><td align="center">Jeromy Burnitz</td></tr><tr><td align="center">21</td><td align="center">David Weathers</td></tr><tr><td align="center">20</td><td align="center">Tom Glavine</td></tr><tr><td align="center">19</td><td align="center">Roger CedeÃ±o</td></tr><tr><td align="center">18</td><td align="center">Timo Perez</td></tr><tr><td align="center">17</td><td align="center">Armando Benitez</td></tr><tr><td align="center">16</td><td align="center">Vance Wilson</td></tr><tr><td align="center">15</td><td align="center">Roberto Alomar</td></tr><tr><td align="center">14</td><td align="center">Tony Clark</td></tr><tr><td align="center">13</td><td align="center">Joe McEwing</td></tr><tr><td align="center">12</td><td align="center">Dan Wheeler</td></tr><tr><td align="center">11</td><td align="center">Mike Stanton</td></tr><tr><td align="center">10</td><td align="center">Raul Gonzalez</td></tr><tr><td align="center">9</td><td align="center">Pedro Feliciano</td></tr><tr><td align="center">8</td><td align="center">John Franco</td></tr><tr><td align="center">7</td><td align="center">Graeme Lloyd</td></tr><tr><td align="center">6</td><td align="center">Jeff Duncan</td></tr><tr><td align="center">5</td><td align="center">Rey Sanchez</td></tr><tr><td align="center">4</td><td align="center">Aaron Heilman</td></tr><tr><td align="center">3</td><td align="center">Grant Roberts</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2</td><td align="center">Scott Strickland</td></tr><tr><td align="center">1</td><td align="center">Jeremy Griffith</td></tr></table>

OlerudOwned · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject:

A year where Trax is our MVP. Fancy that.

Rockin' Doc · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject:

OlerudeOwned - "A year where Trax is our MVP."

They were dark times at Shea.
_________________
If I gain the whole world
And lose my own soul
What would be said of me